When Dr. Jeffrey Rosenbluth left med school for his first job at the University of Utah in 2001, he already had a vision in mind. A skier himself, he wanted to bring that wind-in-your-face sensation of the sport to those who didn’t have the same personal mobility. Fast forward to today, Dr. Rosenbluth's pioneering initiative has led to TetraSki – a device that combines medical science with engineering to create remarkable opportunities for individuals with physical disabilities.
Tanja Kari, Dr. Jeffrey Rosnbluth and Tom Kelly with the Tetraski
In this episode of Last Chair, we head to the Mobility Garage of the University of Utah Health Craig H. Neilsen Rehabilitation Hospital, speaking with Dr. Jeffrey Rosenbluth, along with program director of TRAILS Adaptive Tanja Kari, a six-time Paralympic champion cross country skier who was one of the heroes of the 2002 Paralympic Winter Games in Utah.
TetraSki is truly a revolutionary mobility tool in sport. It features a customized chair attached to a pair of Rossignol skis. The engineering brains of TetraSki allow the operator to control the skis through a simple joystick. And if the skier doesn’t have the body functionality to manipulate the joystick, there’s a breathing tube – blow in or suck out, and the skis respond. A new innovation can also be attached to a functioning muscle, where muscular reflects are converted into ski movement.
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Yes, this is real! And there are now around two dozen TetraSkis around the world, providing mobility opportunities to those who might never have conceived that they might ski.
Growing up in Los Angeles, Rosenbluth would always look for opportunities to get up to Utah for skiing. Wanting to spend his career in spinal cord injury medicine, when he saw a job opportunity in Salt Lake City he jumped at it.
“After the first couple of years of getting settled here, it was obvious that we had this really tight, enthusiastic campus – people with engineering backgrounds and clinical backgrounds, other scientific backgrounds, and then the access to the outdoors is just unprecedented,” he recalled. “I don't think there's another academic center that has this. So there was just an obviousness to where we were heading and getting people excited about building new devices and getting out there and trying new programs – that was an easy sell.”
Early in his tenure, he created TRAILS Adaptive – an acronym combining technology, recreation, access, independence, lifestyle and sports. TRAILS provided the first pathway to provide wellness programs and real opportunities for individuals.
Kari was a young Finnish cross-country skier when she visited Utah for the first time at the 2002 Winter Games. What stood out to her was that the same organizing committee managed both the Olympics and Paralympics – the first time ever! “We felt the difference in the Games for that,” she said, “in the level of expertise and perfectionism. It was just unbelievable for us.” Three years later, she found her way back and has now made Utah her home.
Tanja Kari
She found a home at TRAILS Adaptive for very similar reasons. “As a Paralympian and being involved in this world for a long time in different roles, the fact that we have this mentality and space in the rehabilitation hospital – being able to meet those patients right when they're here with us and sharing the methods of active living – is really important to me.”
“It's challenging when you have a new athlete in the TetraSki who was a skier before – a great skier! There is hesitation and a feeling that it is not going to be like it was before. I don't think I've had a single person who didn't get through their first run and feel every single same sensation that we feel and that we enjoy when we're doing all of our sports. It really just restores all of that function and brings all the good stuff with it.” - Dr. Jeffrey Rosenbluth
It’s easy to geek out at the engineering in TetraSki today. However, the brilliance behind it goes back 20 years as Dr. Rosenbluth began mapping out the vision he brought from med school. “It was just this recognition that you couldn't just open up shop with just sports,” he said. “You had to really think about advocacy. You had to think about sports deeper than just participation – how could you be as independent in that sport as possible? And what if you didn't have transportation? You'd never be able to come and do the sport.
Dr. Jeffrey Rosenbluth
“I thought at first we were really more of a think tank, going through all the different ways we could take folks, especially with more complex disabilities, and get them to participate more frequently to create life sports for some of our complex patients – and then do it at the highest level of independence and performance.”
Ski Utah’s Last Chair podcast with Dr. Jeffrey Rosenbluth and Tanja Kari takes you inside one of the most innovative labs in the sport. It’s a fascinating – and emotional – journey showcasing the work being done at the University of Utah to provide the gift of skiing to those who can’t click into their bindings the same way that we do.
Transcript
Tom Kelly: Today on Last Chair we have an amazing storyline for you. We're in the bowels of the Craig Nielson Rehabilitation Hospital at the University of Utah. We're going to have our guests tell you a little bit more about this. But my guest today, first of all, Doctor Jeffrey Rosenbluth, the medical director at the Craig H. Nielson Rehabilitation Hospital, and also Tanja Kari, a Paralympic champion and the program director for Trails Adaptive. Tanja and Jeff, thanks for joining us.
Jeff Rosenbluth: Thanks for having us.
Tom Kelly: Yeah, it's it's really interesting. I'm going to go to you first, Jeff. We are in the basement of this amazing new hospital up in the University of Utah campus in Salt Lake City. Where are we here in the building?
Jeff Rosenbluth: So this is the brand new Craig H. Nielson rehab hospital. It's only been open for a few years. We decided to build something we called the Mobility Garage and our fabrication space into the basement so we can have our folks looking into different types of adaptive equipment and recreation equipment, other than really just their wheelchair and their car, but to just explore mobility and recreation at a level that really hasn't been seen before in rehabilitation. And we can build whatever we want in our fabrication space next door.
Tom Kelly: You know, it's really amazing for me. I'm a little bit of an equipment geek and I'm with Tanja. We were going through some of the garage earlier before we started the recording. And you've got a 3D printer going over there. I mean, this is really cool. Things are happening here.
Tanja Kari: Cool things are happening. And as a Paralympian and being involved in this world for a long time in different roles, the fact that we have this mentality and, uh, and space in the, in the hospital, rehabilitation hospital, being able to meet those patients right when they're here with us and, and getting them examples. And the methods of active living is really important.
Tom Kelly: Yeah. We're going to talk about so much in this area. You certainly. And we're going to talk about your background as well with the Paralympics is what initially brought you here to to Salt Lake City. I want each of you to give us a little bit of your background. Doctor Rosenbluth, you came here over 20 years ago to this hospital, and I'm wondering, when you came here, did you have any sense of vision of where this might lead you over the next couple of decades?
Jeff Rosenbluth: I had a little sense. I actually got into medicine through recreation and through adaptive sports. And so this was a dream to land my first job in 2001, in Utah. And I knew that our program would take advantage of all the opportunities here in the space, and that we were heading towards a new hospital and that we could do things differently.
Tom Kelly: Was this your first job out of med school?
Jeff Rosenbluth: This was my first job.
Tom Kelly: Wow. That's really amazing. And as you're looking for opportunities, was there something that drew you to Utah other than the fact that there was great skiing here?
Jeff Rosenbluth: Well, I grew up in Los Angeles, but we always snuck out as long as as often as we could to get to Utah. So I knew early on what a special place this was. So when a job came up and there are not that many jobs in spinal cord injury medicine, I jumped at it.
Tom Kelly: Man, that's amazing. We're going to talk more about your vision as we move through the interview here. But Tanja, you came here in 2002 as an athlete. You won three gold medals at the Paralympics and a bronze. What was your impression when you came here from your native Finland?
Tanja Kari: You know, Tom, I was just at Rice-Eccles Stadium two weeks ago, and it brought a lot of memories in. And how Salt Lake City welcomed the world of Paralympians to compete here. That's 22-plus years ago. I can't believe it's that long. But, actually, Salt Lake City was the first organizing committee who that was the same for the Olympic and Paralympic Games. And that was by choice here. And we felt the difference in the games for that, the level of, like expertise and perfectionism around organizing the games was just unbelievable. That really made the Paralympians feel like we are now competing at the level of organized events where we should be. So that made a huge difference for all of those Paralympians who had competed in the previous games before that to this.
Tom Kelly: It's really interesting to hear because I know this has been a talking point, a message of the Salt Lake City-Utah Committee for the Games, that this was the first games where the Olympics and the Paralympics were the same. Organizing committee. So you're an athlete from another country, you're from Finland and you're coming over here. So you knew this, you knew this coming in and you kind of saw that with your own eyes and your own skis.
Tanja Kari: I did see it. And I've always kind of like thought of things in a bigger picture and perspective than just from the athletes' eyes, too. And I did understand what all goes into these things. And, uh, I was really impressed. I've been impressed since then, especially the way we've been working here at the U. And with the kind of group of professionals we've been able to involve in this work, it's not only the sports people, but working closely with the healthcare professionals in terms of getting people back to active living and even to the competition level is just mind-blowing to me. And I think there's a lot for the world to learn about this.
Tom Kelly: Jeff. You came here, I think, in the early 2000, right? Correct. So you came here in the early 2000. The Olympics were happening, but you're just out of med school. You have some thoughts on how you're going to hopefully change the world. When you landed here, you came into the hospital. How long did it take before some of these vision points started to become a reality for you?
Jeff Rosenbluth: I think it was really just after the first couple of years of getting settled here, it was obvious that we had this really tight, enthusiastic campus and people with engineering backgrounds and clinical backgrounds, other scientific backgrounds, and then the access to the outdoors is just unprecedented. I don't think there's another academic center that has this. So there was just an obviousness to where we were heading and getting people excited about building new devices and getting out there and trying new programs was that was an easy sell.
Tom Kelly: One of the first things that you did was to start TRAILS Adaptive. And just for the listeners, we're going to talk about TRAILS Adaptive program that was begun over 20 years ago. And then we're going to morph our way through the evolutionary scale up to talk about the TetraSki. But TRAILS Adaptive was one of the first big things, I think, that you brought into the program here. What was the origin of TRAILS Adaptive back in the 2001 2003 time period?
Jeff Rosenbluth: Well, TRAILS stands for technology, recreation, access, independence, lifestyle, and sports. So it was just this recognition that you couldn't just open up shop with the sports, that you had to really think about advocacy, and you had to think about sports deeper than just participation, but about how could you be as independent at that sport as possible? And what if you didn't have transportation? You'd never be able to come and do the sport. And so it was just a different way of thinking. And I thought at first we were really more of a think tank in thinking through all the different ways we could take folks, especially with more complex disabilities, and get them to participate more frequently to create life sports for some of our complex patients, and then do it at the highest level of independence and performance.
Tom Kelly: Was there something in your life or in your studies as a med student, where you saw an individual or a group of individuals and just thought, I need to help them to find more independence? Is there any kind of moment you can point to?
Jeff Rosenbluth: Well, I found that light actually in college, so I was in college at UC San Diego, but I made the drive almost every weekend to the San Bernardino Mountains, where they were starting in the mid-80s, the first adaptive sports program in Southern California. And that's where I saw it. That's where I met people with spinal cord injuries. That's where some of the new technology and new skis were coming out. And the energy and excitement and the rehabilitation that was happening in adaptive sports was really incredible to me, even when I was 19 years old. So, I always knew that I wanted to be a part of that.
Tom Kelly: When you came here to Utah, you started to form TRAILS Adaptive. In a minute, I want to ask you how you came up with the title, but when you're forming TRAILS Adaptive, were there any kind of initial sports you were looking at? I imagine skiing was right up there at the top.
Jeff Rosenbluth: Skiing was always right there, but we really wanted to focus on any sport that you might be able to do, not just one time, but multiple times. There are some sports that you do once every few years or once in a lifetime. We really wanted to make lifetime sports possible for people that didn't think that they were going to be able to do that.
Tom Kelly: What was and I want to go to this question. I love how you've created the acronym for Trails Adaptive. I'm always curious. How did something like that come up? Were you kind of sitting around noodling on a cocktail napkin and came up with that?
Jeff Rosenbluth: Yeah, there were a couple of different versions of what TRAILS stood for. It would take a long time to go through all of it. At the end of the day, it's helpful to have an acronym that's especially for funding purposes and to draw attention. But when we really think about the name and especially how we combine recreation, technology, and independence, all of those things are really important to us. We combine those in our thinking, and we combine those every day in how we run our programs.
Tom Kelly: Tanja, you came back to Salt Lake City several years after the Paralympics to make this your home. You ended up at the hospital here. How did you evolve into the TRAILS program?
Tanja Kari: So through the Paralympic world, I knew someone who was working, Trish Ober, who was working at the our old rehabilitation center at that time and was heavily involved in the IPC classification world. And Trish knew about Jeff is visioning and dreaming of for our participants and patients. And Trish also knew my background as a Paralympian and also a professional in this world. So. So we got talking, and we started to bounce some ideas from each other. And, uh, I think our plans have grown and changed along the years here quite a bit, but I think it's been a beautiful kind of a combination of our. Jeff is a sports person as well, especially in skiing, but a health care professional and an athlete, sports professional. And it's been it's a healthy conversation every week that we do. And we challenge each other and, in a positive way and keep developing and dreaming big. And, uh, that's how things started to happen. And that's what we are still doing every day.
Tom Kelly: Can you give us an example of some of the wellness programs that you have in place right now that might be interesting to our listeners?
Tanja Kari: So for the sports programming, we have both downhill skiing, cross-country skiing and then biking side. We have mountain biking, road cycling, indoor spinning and virtual spinning. For water sports, we have kayaking, sailing, paddleboards and in the sail program, we have the same technology in sailboats as we have in the TetraSki, so people can use different controls independently and be in charge of the boat.
Tom Kelly: We have a number of very good adaptive, world, world-renowned adaptive programs here in the state with National Ability Center in Park City that has, I think, almost 30 different activities. We have Wasatch Adaptive Sports down in Little Cottonwood Canyon. How does TRAILS Adaptive work together with those programs and probably serving somewhat of the same audiences?
Tanja Kari: Yeah, there are definitely some of the same participants going through multiple programs, which there's nothing wrong with that. And, and, you know, quite a lifestyle. Are they able to build when they have these many resources in this area? Our specialty is the complex physical disability. And those are recreational Athletes and competitive athletes who haven't typically had chance for independent recreation or competition. So that's that's where we we specialize. And also I know that National Ability Center does great work with some autism and cognitive, um, cognitive diagnoses and such. And we are definitely not experts in that area. So, there's there's similarities, but there's also differences between the programs.
Tom Kelly: Jeff, as you're the the young guy 20 some years ago coming up with these programs, what support did you find from the university? Did they embrace your ideas?
Jeff Rosenbluth: They did. We've been working closely throughout the university for a long time, especially with engineering. All of your engineering students are required to do various projects, especially in their senior year. And if you don't give them any ideas, they're probably just going to build a go-kart. And so if you give them a good cause, a good, you know, project that has some real impact if you introduce them to our field and to our patients, we end up with a lot of enthusiasm. And so we, at any given time, will have 20 or 25 mechanical engineering, computer science students, design students, all working on rehabilitation and adaptive recreation-related projects at the same time.
Tom Kelly: So that was the part that really intrigued me as I was looking at this, that and I can imagine that 20-some years ago, you know, you're in the medical department, and all of a sudden, you're coming up with these ideas to bring in other schools around, around campus. Was that initially embraced pretty well by you?
Jeff Rosenbluth: Right now, it's pretty ubiquitous, but it wasn't at the time. I think it was just finding people with with common interests and people, you know, this field of rehabilitation, it's a team-based approach. You need so many people from different disciplines to really move things along. So there was an obviousness to. Reaching out across this campus. We have this tight, compact campus where you can walk everywhere. It's just an innovative spirit, I think, in Utah. And so it really came together more easily, than you would expect.
Tom Kelly: I'd be curious from the perspective of like a mechanical engineering student or a computer science student, uh, this probably wasn't on their radar. All of a sudden, they have this opportunity to use their knowledge to be creative in a different way. Is it really motivating for them?
Jeff Rosenbluth: Oh, I think it's incredibly more than I even thought. You know, at first it looked selfish that, hey, we're going to grab a student for free and get them to work on our project, but I know it works as well, the opposite way. So you have folks that are going to give us maybe it's a good project, maybe it's not. But at the end of the day, these folks are going to see rehabilitation. The students are going to work with our patients with complex disabilities. And I think whatever field they end up in, they're going to remember those experiences, and they're going to do engineering in a different way that's more open and inviting and inclusive.
Tom Kelly: When you're working in a university environment, I imagine that you have you've got two different areas to serve you. You're serving the patients here at the university hospitals, but at the same time, you're looking to really advance technology, advance knowledge, and share your vision with the world. How do you strike that balance between the two?
Jeff Rosenbluth: This is a great question, and I struggle with it every day. There's the day-to-day taking care of folks, too. But I think, you know, I was attracted to academic medicine because it always felt like we needed to have that day-to-day clinical mission, innovation mission, and research mission. And so I've just been lucky to be able to combine all of that and find people that want to support that over the years.
Tom Kelly: Yeah. Tanja, let's go back. And you came in with this career in Paralympic sports. So you were in high-performance programs and looking to achieve these amazing athletic goals? What kind of a transformation was it for you to work more broadly with people with disabilities and to provide them that independence, so you're not out training them to win a gold medal in the Para Games? You're training them to have a life where they have independence. How did that transition work for you?
Tanja Kari: That's a great question again, Tom. And honestly, there are some dimensions to this. Life as an athlete is very important to me. And it it really gave me, to some degree, a deep meaning to my life and to be able to pursue my dreams as an athlete. But to some degree, this is so much more important than that. And it is truly, you see, like, my impairment is so minimum it is so minimum obviously, at that time, it felt big in cross-country skiing, especially when I was 99% competing with able-bodied athletes. But uh, to see some of our athletes, yes, we do train athletes for competition too right now. But to see some of our athletes who are on ventilators and the machine is breathing for them and nothing is functioning from their neck down, makes you think like, what is my situation really difficult? Was it really difficult? It wasn't. And it never was to me. But this just puts it to another complete level. And the fact that this world hasn't been able to to see these, these individuals recreating or, or even giving them an opportunity to compete before this is is something that we are on this culture changing mission here and and and and really trying to think big and get beyond the comfort zone and get uncomfortable sometimes with what we are doing, but is absolutely necessary. And it is so meaningful that it's it's even hard to describe. Like, I know your transition question and I don't think I struggle sometimes athletes struggle with that. Like, what am I now? What am I going to do now after my career? But I was naturally in a bigger picture to even during my career as an athlete. So the transition wasn't hard, but man has it been a beautiful transition. I absolutely love what we do. And and it's it's super important.
Tom Kelly: Great. After the show break, we're going to walk over to the TetraSki. And Jeff have you give us a really detailed tour. But before we do, can you give us a little bit of the timeline of the development? So you came here in the early 2000, and at what point did the TetraSki really start its evolution? What were some of the key milestones along the way?
Jeff Rosenbluth: So we didn't really start working on the TetraSki until it was either 2014, actually, or 2015, and it was a senior design project by engineers. It was pretty rudimentary when it took its first run with a bunch of students, it didn't turn all that well, and so we had a few years of iteration before it was really ready for prime time. And we had a bunch of patients that really hats off to them who participated and, you know, were batteries would fail, and we would crash and something would break, and it would take hours to get off the mountain. So we had a group of really committed patients that helped us bring that forward. We were also lucky enough to bring on a full-time mechanical engineer, not an academic engineer, but an engineer that was devoted to bringing something all the way to the point of commercialization. And that's really the the key here is bringing it to the masses, is translating it from the academic world to the real world. There are so many different labs all over the country that have some great piece of tech that doesn't make it out. And so this was a big commitment for us to get this out there. And the TetraSki has been out, now, this will be its sixth season of being both in Utah and outside of Utah. After this year, there'll be 25 of them and they're stationed globally.
Tom Kelly: And when you say they're stationed globally, what's the access point or is it through other facilities like this?
Jeff Rosenbluth: It's important right now for us that the TetraSki is run through a legitimate adaptive recreation program, where we have experts who've had additional training because it is a complex device, and these athletes are complex also. So we run a pretty tight ship worldwide, providing training, certification, recertification, and oversight to make sure these machines are really running well. And just like cars, like Teslas. Now, Teslas, there are over-the-air updates, software updates for ski equipment, safety updates that we want to keep these pieces of equipment just pristine and working perfectly.
Tom Kelly: What kind of skis do you put on them?
Jeff Rosenbluth: We put race stock slalom, 12-meter traditionally shaped skis. Those really are what run the best for most conditions. But if it gets powdery or it gets slushy, we have a custom set of hinterland skis that are built as a powder ski with plenty of flotation, but also a 12-meter radius. So a 12-meter, a slalom-radius, powder ski for the deep conditions, and it skis very well.
Tom Kelly: This is crazy. When I was looking at the timeline too, I noticed that kind of in your one of your first iterations, it was joystick controlled, and then it moved to the mouth. Controlled breathing controlled. What's in the future?
Jeff Rosenbluth: Yeah, it's such a great question. And so we've really nailed, I think, the joystick control and the breath control, those are traditionally on power wheelchairs as well. The next step, and we've demonstrated it already is what they call EMG control. So these are little metal electrodes that you place on any muscle, any muscle on your body that can just twitch the tiniest amount. Nothing functional, just a little bit of activity. We can translate that activity and map it to a control system on the ski. So my right first toe could be a right turn, my left cheek could be a left turn. Anything. And we've used the term control everything with anything. And that's what we mean here. Control everything in your life that you want to do with anything that we can take from your body that still works.
Tom Kelly: It's amazing going back to your time as a Paralympic athlete, was this even in your wildest dreams?
Tanja Kari: You know, yes and no working in this world? Worse. But did I ever imagine that we're going to be pushing to get our athletes in the 2034 games program? No, not at that time. However, now we do. And that is the whole new competition world that we are we are pushing. Look, the Winter Paralympic Games program needs development. The International Paralympic Committee needs to find more ways to to give competitive opportunities for athletes with complex physical disabilities, athletes with high support needs as they as they use the language for for these athletes. And this is this is the solution. It's right here developed in Utah. The TetraSki these athletes are independently deciding turns getting around the gates. We are are testing. We are failing. We are picking ourselves up. We are testing again. We are succeeding. We are doing all of the groundwork here. That needs to be done. And that's the that's the mission we are on. There's absolutely no reason why this can't get into official competition program. We have a lot of work to do with FIS and getting moving forward with this mission, but we are doing it.
Tom Kelly: Well, this has been fascinating. We're going to take a quick show break, and then we're going to go over and meet TetraSki. For all of our listeners, I know this is an audio only podcast. This is very visual. So we hopefully you can make your way to the Ski Utah website and check out the blog listing for this episode, and you'll be able to see some great video and pictures to show you just what TetraSki is about. We'll be right back on Last Chair.
Tom Kelly: Welcome back to Last Chair. We are in the most amazing lab underneath the Craig Nielson Rehabilitation Hospital. Tanja and Jeff are giving us the tour. Here. I do want to go back and see some of the goodies back in the workshop, but right in front of us right now we have the TetraSki. We talked about it in the first half of the show. TetraSki was developed right here at the University of Utah. So, Jeff, I'm going to turn it over to you and you can give our listeners a little bit of a description as to what we're seeing in front of us. All I can recognize are the Rossignol hero slalom skis. So take it away, Jeff.
Jeff Rosenbluth: Great. We have what looks like half of a race car seat. Carbon reinforced, super strong. We have a special cushion that we use on power wheelchairs to protect, protect our folks skin. And we've taken a lot of power wheelchair components like armrests and headrests and just shoulder control and stability and just really locked people into this seat. So even if they don't have leg or trunk or arm function at all, they are sitting really tight and in the best possible position to control this device. There are electric actuators on each ski, so each ski has its own actuator and they are independently operated with either a joystick control, which I'm doing right now. And you can hear that a little bit as I press forward. It's just the whole pizza French fry deal. So forward fast and French fries skis are straight. As I pull back, I get a little bit more of a wedge and as I go left or right, I just roll one ski or the other onto its edge.
Tom Kelly: I have a question, Jeff. When this was being engineered, I just watched it with the joystick. You can control the skis, you can control, they're straighter. They're more kind of pizza then. But how did your engineers decide on the angles of the ski?
Jeff Rosenbluth: A lot of the angles were already built into the frame, and it just took a little bit of time to think about how long the ski needed to be and how long it needed to turn, and how fast those actuators actually work. And this device takes a while to get better at. When you are a beginner, you actually can go into a mode that's slow, so you can see how much slower our actuators are working as you're learning the ropes and figuring out how to turn. But as you get better, we take people along on a road here and now. The actuators are about two and a half times as fast. And so we really have this beginner, intermediate, and advanced device. It's not just get in and go. There is a learning curve here.
Tom Kelly: Tanja, I want to go to you for one. As we look at this we have a nice comfortable seat. It's custom-formed. There's lots of really sophisticated improvements, honestly. And I know you're a cross country skier, and this is really more for alpine or downhill skiers, but there hasn't been any evolution in the last few decades. It's just this big plastic bucket. Right. So this was really quite a change from what had existed for skiers.
Tanja Kari: This really is a game-changer for everything. I mean, the industry has been stuck. And like Tom, we talked about earlier portion in this podcast, like we are changing the culture of adaptive skiing. And this provides athletes with very complex high injuries to have independent way of recreating, skiing, competing. Even so, this is really absolutely a game-changer here.
Jeff Rosenbluth: And we have been putting people with complex disabilities in ski-like devices for a long time. I think the point is most of them are dependently taken down the hill to some degree. And this is really that transition from that dependence piece and going for a ride, a roller coaster, to really taking on 100% of the responsibilities of turning and speed control and terrain selection.
Tom Kelly: I think of my friend Chris Waddell, who lives in Park City, I think a 13-time Paralympic medallist, and I can see him going over the jumps on the downhill at Snowbasin in his kind of monocoque, uh, sit-ski of sorts. And just, you know, this is so far advanced from that.
Tanja Kari: It is. But at the same time, Chris doesn't need this ski. Chris has enough function left in his trunk and in his body that he can ski the mono ski. So, the mono-skis have been advancing as well over the years, but typically, there hasn't been then anything advanced for those who cannot use mono skis based on their injury.
Jeff Rosenbluth: And when we say complex, we're really talking about people that have no movement of their legs, their trunk, or their arms, and sometimes not even their neck. They are sometimes just using their cheeks and their breath. And in this case, you can do that and control the ski that way. So, with tiny sips and puffs of air, puffing out or sipping in. The skis are actually moving as I'm exhaling or as I'm inhaling, and I can stop at any time and just. You can't imagine the precision with just that tiny bit of breath control.
Tom Kelly: You know, for those who are not in the room with us here, all Jeff did was go to this small little mouthpiece which can be moved around. It's on a little bit of a gooseneck, and he's breathing out, sucking in. And that is actually making the Rossignol skis turn simply with that. And does it take much? Do you have to exert much breath to get it to do that?
Jeff Rosenbluth: No, it's the opposite. A lot of people are overbreathing, and so it's the tiniest amount of air. So you can really actually talk and still do the sip and puff at the same time. It's not a big task even when you're on mechanical ventilation, and you have a machine helping you with every breath.
Tom Kelly: Jeff, I know, and Tanja, I think you'll have something to say on this too. One of the points on your pathway was to actually do a competition to get people out there on the hill. Can Tanja, do you want to talk about that? And you've done this event now up at Powder Mountain for the last few years. What's it like to get people in the TetraSki and up on the hill and kind of a competitive environment.
Tanja Kari: You know, Tom, when we started racing, we didn't really know what the response will be from our competitors and participants. And it's been enormously successful. These athletes are now able to identify themselves as athletes, which wasn't happening previously. And they are celebrated as athletes. And we provide them a world-class race event. And it's everything. Tom, I told you earlier that the world has been stuck in this, and we've been too comfortable with what has been the standard in this industry for decades, and that's not okay. So that's what we are changing here and there's more and more people believing in this. And there's more and more people wanting to do this. And our community and family are growing worldwide. And I cannot wait to see this in 2034 Games.
Tom Kelly: Yeah. Let's fast forward nine years to the 2034 Olympic and Paralympic Winter Games. Come here to Salt Lake City, Utah. Is there a chance that we could maybe see a Tetraski in 2034 here?
Tanja Kari: The program needs development. There is space and room in the winter sports program. And as I said, our family globally is growing, and there is absolutely no reason why we can't do that and make it happen. However, we have a lot of work to do, but we are doing all of that work, testing everything, even the race concept. Like what type of homologation do we need on the hill? What is the what is the course? Right now, we are doing a giant slalom one-minute race, which is perfect, and people are 0.1 second apart from each other at the finish line. It is super competitive and we are expanding worldwide training programs, getting athletes involved. We are going to be seeing races in Switzerland also 20, 25, 26 years and that. That's what needs to happen. We are we are expanding and getting the nations involved that we need. And let's not forget that the alpine skiing is already in the games program. Now, we are talking about a category of athletes and new devices that haven't been in the program yet.
Tom Kelly: This spring we had a visit from the International Olympic Committee, also a representative from the International Paralympic Committee, and I think you snuck them in for a little visit, just kind of see behind the scenes. What was their reaction to seeing this?
Tanja Kari: It was excitement and belief. There is there's definitely a belief in this that we can do this and a willingness to do this and see this. There's no, no doubt that the visit recognized what we are doing here. We touched base a little bit about it with the with the bigger group as well. But total excitement not only about what the TetraSki can do and what the potential is there, but also seeing this rehabilitation center and how we work, sports professionals, healthcare professionals together to create that pathway for the Paralympic athletes and hopefully eventually get some of them in the games.
Tom Kelly: Jeff, one more serious question then we'll just do a couple of fun things to end. But, you know, as you look back on your time here, you've been here 23ish years, something like that. Um, right. This is your creation here. This is your creation. And so it has to give you a good feeling of pride.
Jeff Rosenbluth: Well, it might be my creation, but I am not that creative or handy. And so I have surrounded myself with amazing myself, with amazing people and amazing engineers and just giving them the space to to create. So I am really proud and I'm proud of the ski and also the subsequent devices that are coming out. And I think as long as I'm still breathing and still here and still interested in all of this, I'm excited about really leveling the playing field across any activity that anyone wants to participate in.
Tom Kelly: A couple of fresh questions to wrap it up here, and I want to thank both of you for your time here today. Tanja, as you look back in your career here at the Craig Nielson Rehabilitation Hospital at the University of Utah, is there any particular kind of point or maybe it was a patient you were working with or something that really said to you, hey, I'm really glad I'm doing this and I'm able to give back to people.
Tanja Kari: You know, each participant and patient are giving something to me. And the actually the more challenging participant or patient in terms of like in, in that denial that I can't do this and I don't want to do this, but they don't know yet whether they can do it or whether they should be doing it. So working on each individual and working together with them and then finding the pathway forward and getting back into active living. And not only that, but then making the absolute best out of it. Like, let's do the fit clinics, let's find the right equipment, let's get the progress going, and eventually each individual will end up in a good place. And there's there's also some patients who've been telling me that I'm so grateful I got my spinal cord injury because my life is way better now than it was before. So how can you not be smiling from that feedback.
Tom Kelly: You know? How about you?
Jeff Rosenbluth: Well, it's particularly challenging when you have a new athlete in the TetraSki who was a skier before. A great skier. And so there is hesitation and a feeling like this is not going to be like it was before. It's going to pale in comparison. And I don't think I've had a single person that didn't get through their first run and feel every single same sensation that we feel and we enjoy when we're doing all of our sports. So this doesn't take away anything. It really just restores all of that function and brings all the good stuff with it. So super exciting.
Tom Kelly: Last question, Tanja, what's a great ski day for you in Utah?
Tanja Kari: Every day when there's snow. Every day is a great ski day. If I could ski every day. So I think the chef needs to change my schedule a little bit so that I can ski every day.
Jeff Rosenbluth: For our engineer, one of the ways we keep them here is when it snows. He goes, so that's how it works around here.
Tom Kelly: That's the way employment works in Utah. Jeff, what's a good ski day for you?
Jeff Rosenbluth: You know, a good ski day is really getting out, especially with some of these devices, with someone who has never done it before, and it is much fun. It is for the new athlete. I love watching the families. I love watching the significant others that have wanted to help and do something and never felt like they could, and then just to see their loved ones out there doing what they love and enjoying it at the same level of anything they've ever done is really, really powerful, I love that.
Tom Kelly: Tanja. Jeff, thank you so much for joining us on Last Chair. This has been enlightening.
Jeff Rosenbluth: Thank you so much. Take care. Thank you.
Tom Kelly: Tom. Quite an interesting conversation. Folks, make sure you read the show notes. You can find those at Skiutah.com. We'll be back for more.
